Curse

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Man, you reach for anything you can, don't you? I guess it happens when you talk nonsense.
You point out nothing but your inability to prove anything. I love how you ask me to take Blackbird's "challenge", but can't answer a single thing I ask. Ironic? I realize you have no way to actually prove anything you say so you need to think up jabbing quips and beat on strawmen.

This is not my issue. You guys are arguing about the loot nerf, and I just dropped in and saw the quote-post-quote-post long responses you come up with that are pretty funny.

So you want me to answer your questions? What questions? I am reviewing your first ranty-post, and I see two questions where you did not presuppose my answer, which you complain other people do. Pot, kettle, etc. Now that's funny.

So, for "why would you want to do that", doesn't matter because you did not, so I don't care.

The humor is more important to me than understanding you, when you are advocating an obviously incorrect position in the first place.

For how it directly conflicts your view, that is because you are advocating that the nerf helps casual players, and it does not. It does not hurt them either. So once again, don't care.

You seem to unable to concretely articulate your viewpoint if you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I can support this update by saying on the forum I'm fine with it.

So I say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabascoSauce

I dunno bro. I am going to side with Lyra. (who likes attributions for her comments) I agree that this does not help or hurt the casual player, which directly conflicts with your view.

and then you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

It directly conflicts my view? How?

I dunno bro. How does it conflict with your view?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Edit - Thank you Secorsky, I have never had to delete a double post, but I figured it out.

Sir Kilgore · May 02, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I do. I don't know what to tell you. The drop rate of several things is increased in HM.

I should have said rare. HM makes rares (and good ones to from my experience) drop 3x as much.

Hmm I thought that was only for the solo farmers

My experience in HM is that roughly 99% of rare (gold) drops are merchant food. Unless a gold item has perfect stats (or sometimes 1 point away from perfect) and a low req you won't get much more from players than you would from the merchant - and the merchant is a guaranteed instant sale.

I don't believe for one second that you make more in HM than was possible to make solo before HM was put into place, but if you say it's true then so be it. You may make a little more playing the game in HM, but it probably takes a little more time to go through an area, thereby bringing the $/hr of normal play probably very close - close enough to be irrelevant anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

What I mean by stable is more reasonable prices. Things always fluctuate after big changes, it just happens. Even if it's only based on perception. So I don't know if we can judge it yet. If it stays high for months, yes I would question the point of thi.

Define reasonable.

To me it's a relative thing. If the cost of something now is 100K and the average stored wealth is 50K then the item is still far out of reach of the average player. If the cost drops to 70K and the average wealth has dropped to 30K, it's still well beyond the grasp of the average player. (Those numbers are for illustration.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Ok, this seems to be (as far as I can tell) the crux of what you are asking.
First it doesn't just harm the human solo group, it harms bots. Their income just goes down. Someone recently said the GW gold prices went up, that's the only evidence I have that it is effecting them, but I can't be sure of that. But the idea makes sense.

Sure prices went up. They aren't getting as much "new gold" per run. So what? It's not like the bots get tired. They just leave them running and get what they get. They still can make GW money far faster than a human because the bots can run essentially 24 hours a day. They are still able to dump GW money into the economy at a much faster pace than humans can earn it, so even though prices may drop a little the effect is still the same or perhaps intensified. And because they raised their prices online, the botters are still making real money at such a pace that there's no reason to quit doing it. In other words the update hit humans at least as hard as bots, so in relative terms there's either very little change or a slight advantage to the botters compared to pre-update. One thing you can be sure of is that the botting hasn't slowed significantly or stopped. As I mentioned before, you can stop in at one of the favorite bot locations to see for yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Those who simply play through campaigns in smaller groups (which I think ANET has noticed as the majority) will have NO DIFFERENCE in drops. But will see lower prices on RUNES, RARE CRAFTING MATERIALS, and ITEMS sold by players.

I don't think it's the big "sky is falling" thing we think it is.

Right. They see no difference in drops, but farmers do. In case you haven't farmed before I'll explain it to you a little. On many farm runs there used to be far too many items dropped to fit in your inventory. Typically the human farmer takes along salvage kits so he can salvage common items and get some value out of every drop rather than leave them lying around. When he gets back into town he sells these to the material traders and rare material traders. Since those traders raise/lower prices based on what has been bought and sold, the farmers ensured that most of the material prices stayed low. Now there's no longer a need to salvage items on most runs and therefore fewer materials being sold to traders. How this will play out long term I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to see some materials rise in cost.

As for the runes, with a few notable exceptions most runes never were more than a few hundred gold pieces. The ones that were significantly more expensive while desirable were certainly not necessary and probably not frequently purchased by "casual players". I seriously doubt that very many of them spent over 30K on a Superior Vigor for instance. So even if the price drops to 15K now, it's irrelevant because it wasn't something they purchased before. In fact they may now be more likely to purchase one and thereby put a further drain on the same level of income as before.

Now for the items costs. Many green items started out very expensive, but rapidly dropped to what I consider reasonable levels. With a few exceptions most of them could be obtained between 5 and 30K just a couple months after their introduction into the game. Many of these also have good skins on them and all the higher level versions have "perfect" stats. These already offered a good solution to the casual player who wanted a spiffy weapon at a reasonable price. If they couldn't afford those, they certainly won't be able to afford the "coolest" stuff even at a reduced price.

Personally, if I can't get at least 5-10K from an item I won't even bother advertising to players at all. It's just not worth the hassle of WTS spamming in town when I could be playing. Unless it's worth 25K or more I probably won't post more than a few WTS messages before moving on, but I may store it for a while rather than sell it at the merchant. Many of those items eventually go to the merchant.

So the bottom line is the only items I'm even remotely interested in selling to other players are the high dollar items that the casual player can't and never will be able to afford anyway. I may not represent the farming community as a whole, but I know quite a few others that feel the way I do.

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

This is not my issue. You guys are arguing about the loot nerf, and I just dropped in and saw the quote-post-quote-post long responses you come up with that are pretty funny.

You find attending to posts funny? I guess you don't like logic then. I guess you don't expect people to actually answer your bungles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So you want me to answer your questions? What questions? I am reviewing your first ranty-post, and I see two questions where you did not presuppose my answer, which you complain other people do. Pot, kettle, etc. Now that's funny.

I love it.. MY post is ranty and yours isn't? All this started because I pointed out listing all of one viewpoint & saying it is the only one that matters is disingenuous. Then you come in making untrue statements about what I said because it's "funny"?
Oh, yeah, where did I complain people presuppose answers? So far every Pot, Kettle comment you've made is based on things you manufactured. Does it bother you that you have to base all your arguments on non-truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The humor is more important to me than understanding you, when you are advocating an obviously incorrect position in the first place.

I'm advocating an "obviously incorrect position"? Can you point out how the casual player, who uses a full party is worse off? As far as I can tell most people play with a full hench/hero/pug team, since, that's what the game was built around. I think the only thing that's "obviously incorrect" is that most people spend a majority of their time soloing the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

For how it directly conflicts your view, that is because you are advocating that the nerf helps casual players, and it does not.

I know it's really really hard for you, but you can make it up a few and read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Hmm I thought that was only for the solo farmers

no, I'm not soloing when I do this. Also, the items are much more useful. Especially Runes or items for Heros

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

I don't believe for one second that you make more in HM than was possible to make solo before HM was put into place, but if you say it's true then so be it. You may make a little more playing the game in HM, but it probably takes a little more time to go through an area, thereby bringing the $/hr of normal play probably very close - close enough to be irrelevant anyway.

I guess it's just different experience. Nothing else I can say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Define reasonable.

To me it's a relative thing. If the cost of something now is 100K and the average stored wealth is 50K then the item is still far out of reach of the average player.

It is, that's true. But I'm not talking about things that are 50k. I mean like Rare Materials & dye & such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Sure prices went up. They aren't getting as much "new gold" per run. So what? It's not like the bots get tired. They just leave them running and get what they get. They still can make GW money far faster than a human because the bots can run essentially 24 hours a day.

The difference is that Bots represent an investment that someone put into buying the account. If they can slow the time it takes for them reap enough gold to equal the investment(or not make much) then they can make it not worth doing for them. Bots can ALWAYS make money more consistently than people, that's the point. It's not an issue of the bots getting tired, but the people setting them up saying "this isn't worth the time"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Right. They see no difference in drops, but farmers do.

That's my point. I don't think Casual Players are solo farmers.

Most of the stuff you listed is high priced stuff, this still takes time to get, but I pointed out runes because someone used that as a main reason to be against the nerf. It's not so much based on what you said, but what I noticed others had listed as reasons.

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Lets try this again.

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I can support this update by saying on the forum I'm fine with it.

I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I dunno bro. I am going to side with Lyra. (who likes attributions for her comments) I agree that this does not help or hurt the casual player, which directly conflicts with your view.

You replied:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

It directly conflicts my view? How?

I say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I dunno bro. How does it conflict with your view?

You say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Can you point out how the casual player, who uses a full party is worse off?

And the final touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

I know it's really really hard for you, but you can make it up a few and read.

Normally I would ask you if you see a logical problem with the thread here on your part with a trailing smiley, but since you seem serious about this topic, I'll tell you.

I never said a casual player is worse off.

Maybe you need to take your own advice bro.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Darksun · May 02, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I never said a casual player is worse off. Maybe you need to take your own advice bro.

Oh you got me there bro! You are, infact, the master of semantics. I'm glad to know that even you can tell the truth sometimes.

Sir Kilgore · May 02, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

It is, that's true. But I'm not talking about things that are 50k. I mean like Rare Materials & dye & such.

As am I in additon to the high price items. Farmers USED to sell far more salvaged rare materials, runes, insignias, etc. to the traders/merchants. Because they now get fewer drops, they aren't reaping nearly as many of these items to sell back to the merchants, and as long as the demand remains steady or increases, that will cause a rise in price. Take a look at the Radiant Insignia if you don't believe me. Dyes are supposedly unaffected as are some rare material drops such as ectos and shards, so that isn't as dramatically affected because of the drop rate. However, fewer people will farm some areas because of the change and therefore there could still be somewhat fewer sales to the merchants for some of these items. For UW farming you have to pay 1K to get in, so if you don't make at least that in drops you go backwards. Most solo builds there are fairly time consuming to master and a second or two of lag or a momentary loss of concentration can mean you wasted 1K.

The change has resulted in some price drops in some areas, but increases in prices in other areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

The difference is that Bots represent an investment that someone put into buying the account. If they can slow the time it takes for them reap enough gold to equal the investment(or not make much) then they can make it not worth doing for them. Bots can ALWAYS make money more consistently than people, that's the point. It's not an issue of the bots getting tired, but the people setting them up saying "this isn't worth the time"

When 2 or 3 gold sales will pay for the cost of an account it's not likely to result in the botters feeling it's not worth it. Even with the scaled looting that's probably 24-72 hours worth of botting before it can pay for itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

That's my point. I don't think Casual Players are solo farmers.

I think you should have read the next couple paragraphs a little more carefully. Because of the nature of farming, expensive items were VERY expensive, but at the same time the common materials were about as cheap as they could get. Since casual players are more likely to need/use crafting materials, rare crafting materials, and runes, they received a nice benefit from the human farmers' merchant sales that has been diminished somewhat by the recent change. The high price stuff was already out of range and will remain out of range so there's no benefit there. However, if the commonly used things take a modest jump in price then the casual player is negatively affected compared to pre-nerf. Some things seemed to have already increased a bit in price, but it will be interesting to see what happens long term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Most of the stuff you listed is high priced stuff, this still takes time to get, but I pointed out runes because someone used that as a main reason to be against the nerf. It's not so much based on what you said, but what I noticed others had listed as reasons.

Some of the most expensive runes have decreased in price, but some of the other runes have become more expensive already. I'm not certain about the overall impact on the casual player, but it certainly seems as if low-level character development could become more difficult if very many things rise much at all.

flamercrazy · May 02, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

anet pls... stop taking too many of these and revert the game to how it used to be... FUN!

change loot to how it used to drop. we dont need to be tortured just because you cant stop a bunch of bots who are ruining the economy.

change soul reaping... omg change soul reaping to how it used to be before factions came out...

all the recent updates have upset a fair amount of players..

having said that, the extra storage update was good.

Loviatar · May 02, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

As for the runes, with a few notable exceptions most runes never were more than a few hundred gold pieces. The ones that were significantly more expensive while desirable were certainly not necessary and probably not frequently purchased by "casual players". I seriously doubt that very many of them spent over 30K on a Superior Vigor for instance.

before the rune trader and the guaranteed rune salvage you started out at 1k-5k for any rune including minors.

if i saw a superior vigor under 40k back then i would have been shocked as they were usually at least 60k at the trader/

i spent my plat carefully just to get minor runes and a major vigor was a 10k+ investment.

TabascoSauce · May 02, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamercrazy

change soul reaping... omg change soul reaping to how it used to be before factions came out...

There is a thread out there about the Soul Reaping nerf started by CountessCorpula which has a poll. Please drop by, vote in the poll, and post your opinion!

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

free_fall · May 02, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

Some of the most expensive runes have decreased in price, but some of the other runes have become more expensive already. I'm not certain about the overall impact on the casual player, but it certainly seems as if low-level character development could become more difficult if very many things rise much at all.

Amen, to that. I've been forced to put majors on several of the heroes as they're still 100g, where the minors are over 1000g.

Bring over a Tyrian or Canthan char and having to equip 5 heroes off the bat with Radiants, Survivors and minor runes can set you back a sizeable amount.

It might not be as bad for those of us who've been playing a long time and amassed tidy fortunes but new players will have difficulties, no doubt.

Sir Kilgore · May 02, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

before the rune trader and the guaranteed rune salvage you started out at 1k-5k for any rune including minors.

if i saw a superior vigor under 40k back then i would have been shocked as they were usually at least 60k at the trader/

i spent my plat carefully just to get minor runes and a major vigor was a 10k+ investment.

My apologies. I should have phrased that "since I have been playing". GW was out for nearly a year before I jumped on board so I missed out on all the fun of the economics prior to that.

Loviatar · May 02, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

My apologies. I should have phrased that "since I have been playing". GW was out for nearly a year before I jumped on board so I missed out on all the fun of the economics prior to that.

the more desirable superiors were 40k not kidding to 100k/

my most fun moment came when the first and only superior vigor rune i have found expert salvaged into the most amazing pile of crafting materials.

they were going for 75+k at the time. wimpers at memory

Sir Kilgore · May 02, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

the more desirable superiors were 40k not kidding to 100k/

my most fun moment came when the first and only superior vigor rune i have found expert salvaged into the most amazing pile of crafting materials.

they were going for 75+k at the time. wimpers at memory

Did it tingle when the gun barrel in your mouth made contact with your fillings?

Abarra · May 03, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

yes but when runes were more expensive in the early days of GW it was also a lot easier to make cash (if only by farming runes o_O)

Loviatar · May 03, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abarra

yes but when runes were more expensive in the early days of GW it was also a lot easier to make cash (if only by farming runes o_O)

please note that i have been here since early beta and got the 1 day head start on April 27th and have missed very few days since.

small breaks as wanted but still a little over 2 hours a day average.

i was playing back in the days of so called easy money

i was squeezed back then to afford 1-5k each for my minor runes along with the 10k for major vigor.

shell out 15+k for a common superior?.........no way

that was after a few months from a fresh new start.

yesterday i emptied everything into the vault and using no elites i vermen hunted the lowlands and got the return of about 2.4 plat per hour which someone else said was about what he got as well.

5 hours farming that trash would give you all the runes except superior vigor with gold left over...........the same runes that i spent many weeks earning enough to get in the good old days of so called easy money.

free_fall · May 04, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Having an addictive personality, I always used to laugh at that "Evercrack" sobriquet back in my single-player gaming days.

Then I started playing GW.

And playing, and playing, and playing - every waking moment, including many when I should have been sleeping, was spent playing GW, it seems like.

2 regular Proph, 1 reg + 1 CE Factions, 4 extra char slots, 2 SE NF.

Twenty-one long, fun-filled months.

Well, make that 20 fun-filled months followed by 1 month of, first, dismay, then, disgust.

First came the SR nerf - well, there's goes the fun from playing him, scratch 40% of my time, put it into some of the others, I guess.

Then comes hard mode/loot scaling and suddenly I'm not even making diddly-squat, either while out playing through a campaign or out farming.

I mean, like, WTF?!!!

Aside from the story-lines (which I've liked, btw), that's the whole reason I play PvE and not PvP - WHEN I KILL SOMETING, I WANT SOME LOOT TO DROP, DAMMIT!!!

assassin_of_ni · May 04, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

uuuhm.......kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

Mournblade · May 04, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

EverQuest, single-player? Huh?

No matter what the game is, if you play for the 'stuff' you will always be disappointed in the end. Either you can't get enough of it and get frustrated, or you get too much and end up bored. (Balance may as well be imaginary, as often as we see it, and as brief as it lasts)

Sol Deathgard · May 04, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_fall

First came the SR nerf - well, there's goes the fun from playing him, scratch 40% of my time, put it into some of the others, I guess.

Funny, Good players and figured out that the SR nerf isn't really that big of a deal, if you still can't get over it, guess what? You aren't a good player.

[/QUOTE] Then comes hard mode/loot scaling and suddenly I'm not even making diddly-squat, either while out playing through a campaign or out farming.[/QUOTE] funny, I'm making about the same I was before, of course I'm playing more HM then NM.

[/QUOTE] Aside from the story-lines (which I've liked, btw), that's the whole reason I play PvE and not PvP - WHEN I KILL SOMETING, I WANT SOME LOOT TO DROP, DAMMIT!!![/QUOTE] I don't know why people like you keep whining about that, I was just farming SS & LB points in Sulferous Wastes and not even 10 mins in I have 5 golds. again this was on HM.

Lord Sojar · May 04, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Oh look, another bitch thread... Stop it! I am so sick of seeing these, and I am pretty sure the MODs are about to pull their hair out... Inde, I believe you need to use meteor shower on these silly threads that have no substance; the woe is my life and OMG Guild Wars is nerfed threads... so OLD.